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Furious with the NHS

Discussion in 'Rants & Raves' started by Edski675, Dec 30, 2011.

  1. The difference, David, is that one side is entirely voluntary and the other side exists entirely due to violent coercion. In a free market, if private companies don't perform well, then they fail. In the public sector, if an organisation performs poorly, more money is stolen from the public to prop up an underperforming institution.

    And the bank collapse illustrates my point entirely. The banks do NOT exist in a free market. Their mistakes are socialised and their profits are privatised. The banks got into this situation, deliberately, because government grants them the unique privelage to counterfit currency. They got into that position deliberately because they know the government will not let them fail.


    I think that you're missing the point regarding the 'parasite' class because you're taking it personally. The point is that anywhere the state becomes involved gets less and less efficient and less value for money. That's not to mention the fundamental immorality and 'evil' ness of it all. Yet this leviathan trundles on because there is a huge swathe of the population that are so heavily invested in it.
     
  2. dino

    dino

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    Its not the individuals its the bloody governments fault, and mostly that is labour for the past umpteen years, for employing so many people....

    There has never been a nation yet that built its wealth and improved the lot of its people by creating more and more government employees.

    We need less government employees not more. back in 2006 we had a greater proportion of government employees than any other EU state.

    Government employees are a burden to the nations prosperity, that's not to say that many are not necessary and vital jobs.

    To those that would argue they are taxpayers as well then i would point out that they are only paying tax from that which is given them out of taxes so its not any sort of contribution at all.

    The only way out of this recession is for the the UK is to create more employment in the wealth creating private sector, not the wealth draining government sector.

    Unfortunately we don't seem to have enough of that sort of industry left in the UK at the moment.



    rant over ... I'll get me coat and retire from this debate :whistle: :scarper:

    BTW - A happy and prosperous new year to all ;)
     
  3. David

    David

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    I'm not taking it personally triplex I don't work in the public sector and haven't for some years. If you don't like the bank example try the privatised utilities and railways, more examples of how if you follow the Thatcherite principles you espouse you have private sector inefficient companies where fat cats get rich and failure and incompetence is rewarded by the market. In fact the only example where your theory holds true with any consistency is a sole trader model - which isn't really cut out to deliver healthcare to 60million people.
    Would you have private companies deliver military services too?


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  4. I don't want to hog the thread, but Dino made me just want to say this: Look at the United states before 1913. The US federal government, constrained by the consitution, had a few key jobs such as the defense of the US borders, etc. Apart from that the constitution limits any involvement of the federal government in state matters, and hence government was small. The US used to be the most prosperous and free nation on the planet.

    Now since the constitution has been made worthless the government is huge, and nearly 50% of Americans are on food stamps. The debt ceiling is being raised again to over 16 trillion, and Americans have the least freedom ever.

    The Britain never had an opportunity like that, so referring to 19th century england where there was no NHS, etc, makes no sense.
     
  5. David

    David

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    Dino I think you make a good point about the number of government employees but the idea that the public sector drains the economy and the private sector creates wealth on its own is too simplistic. How many private companies could make a profit without a healthy workforce traveling to work on public transport having been educated at non fee paying schools from houses where their rubbish is collected and the police attempt to keep them safe and there is an army to protect the nation? While these services are not generating wealth no one is generating wealth without them


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  6. David

    David

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    Triplex perhaps you should look at Somalia which is the only country which is currently attempting to run with no public sector, next closest would be Afghanistan - neither doing so well I think


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  7. Yes. Private everything. But that might be a bit off topic.

    But the utilities and trains are not a good example either. Again there is no free market, AND they are subsidised by the state. Private comapnies subsidised by the state are worse than pure public or pure private. Corporate fascism is probably little strong for trains & water companies, but corporate fascism, where state and corporations combine, means the worst possible value for the consumer.
     
  8. I have my eyes open otherwise i wouldnt be able to walk, run, ride but I choose not to care about the big scary men with guns and get on and enjoy myself.

    Where do you go when you get kidnapped ? What would they hope to gain by kidnapping me ? Will I get water boarded until I give up the secret location of the toffypop biscuits ?

    One last question do you ever look up when you go outside ? Oh and destroy your mobile and sim card
     
  9. That's a false dichotomy. Who says that without a state noone would be educated? or that there would be no bbish collectors, or police force?
     
  10. David

    David

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    Private armies - hilarious. Nothing more needs to be said


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  11. As you're entirely off topic and obviously trolling i'll not respond any further :cool:
     
  12. When people resort to ad hominem attacks it's a sign that they are out of their depth.
     
  13. David

    David

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    No it isn't!


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  14. dino

    dino

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    I believe there is a responsibilitry of government to its people. That would include law and order and an environment conducive to commerce.

    In the Uk that would also include the NHS along with Education and public utilities and a standing Army IMHO - BUT there are just too many people employed in the "Business" of government.

    These jobs (not the employees themselves) are a drain on the nations wealth. Some may be essential services that assist in the wealth creation. But they are still a cost to the nations wealth in the form of taxes to pay for them.

    Triplex - there are a number of reasons for the US reaching its position of financial strength in the 20th C most of it to do with it being the largest steel and energy producer in the world by some margin in 1946, having little or no debt from the second world war and also being the largest homogeneous market in the world for consumer goods.
     
  15. D41

    D41

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    Why not?....they already exist....what do you think all the "private contractors" in Iraq & Afghanistan are....they're simply former military personel (often ex-special forces) who are hired by the likes of Aegis & BSC to perform what is essentially mercenary work.

    Nothing wrong with less government and privatisation at all....I used to pay the City Of Orange to take away my trash and for my water...they recently decided to hire a private company to take away the trash and now I only pay them for my water...result - I pay less for both! Another example....through my wife's job, I have private health coverage which she pays for (and if I didn't have it then I wouldn't be able to do track-days)...it's a small amount that she pays, but it guarantees me first class healthcare whenever I need it...what do I care if the insurance company paid $5000 for me to stay in hospital for 4 days...if I had of gone to the county hospital, I would be one leg shy right now....kindly explain to me how any of this is bad in any way??
     
  16. dino

    dino

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    Not sure that is "ad hominem". Its not a personal attack, I think its just sarcasm.

    Now if Triplex had said "you are out of your depth" then his comment, would have been "ad hominem"... I think :cool:

    I have enjoyed this debate :D
     
  17. StMarks

    StMarks PTG

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    I have too Dino. :)

    I suspect that Triplex maybe usually finds his "controversial opinions" exasperate his opponents to the point where they often resort to "ad hominem". I presume that he is therefore felt that was the case in this instance? An easy assumption to make, in the same way that it is the easy route to take.

    I don't believe I can gain further from this thread at this stage, a very emotive subject with strong feelings and opinions from all sides. Lots of conflicting yet valid issues raised. :? :?

    I just hope that Ed's Mum gets the very best attention as soon as possible.!
     
  18. Min

    Min

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    At last somebody like myself ACTUALLY working within the constraints of the system whilst trying to maintain a modicum of professionality and facing all its inherent flaws and negative points on a daily basis and therefore speaking with authority and not just imagining how things would be in their own imagined vision of a "Perfect World!" Sorry again for the out burst but iv recently come home from another long, tiring, over worked and under paid but more dissapointingly under valued shift so with the greatest of respect to any body out there who would take all the crap and abuse (physical at one point) i'v just had in the last 12 hours whilst trying to save lives and be able to listen to rubbish like private is the only way forwards all I can say is please come and try it from my side perhaps you would see things in a different light or at least understand the commitment it takes not to just give up and walk away.
     
  19. Probably.
     
  20. I can only speak for myself, but I think people insisting on private are not trying to imply anything about the people doing the job. Presumably if everything was private it would be much the same people doing the jobs privately.

    It's just how it's all managed that causes issues with me, for different reasons. Doesn't something like 40p in every pound of tax we pay go to servicing debt on government debt? That would fund alot of improvements whether private or publicly funded. That's not to say that nurses, doctors, cleaners, etc aren't doing a good job. Just that government corruption (selling future generations' labour to fund election time bribes) means that you have 40% less resources than you could have.

    **edit** that argument makes more sense in a wider context of general privatisation and deregulation.
     

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