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09-12 Nissin Monoblock Seals. Help needed

Discussion in 'Maintenance & Tweaks' started by Tom.c, Jan 8, 2021.

  1. Tom.c

    Tom.c

    Thread Starter

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    Location: Wiltshire
    So last season was my first and under track conditions the seals I built my calipers with (powerhouse) from ebay turned out to be shocking. I came to this conclusion after attempting to find them again on ebay and then calling the company directly to ask if they still sell them.

    No sir, we pulled them from production as several people complained about the system overheating and causing issues, I explained that this was the situation I was having to which the directed me to OEM seals which triumph have seemed to price at a vomit inducing £140. I firstly thought it may have been my discs had been warped and was planning on buying a new set or the seals had just accrued too much dirt and I was replacing them anyway! alas it turns out it was the seals failing or doing their job too well whichever you may decide as it took almost 80psi to remove some of the pistons!

    so I'm currently looking into options and reading some forum post and I came across this so has anyone ever done this or similar?

    They'd be genuine Honda Nissin seals and half the price? you'll laugh when you find out what bike they're from. Below is the extract I pulled from a very dated thread


    I found out another one: the Daytona '09 Nissin monoblock caliper seals cost an arm and a leg. about 64 euro a set (per caliper that is, at Worldoftriumph.com). At triumph the '09 onwards have a different part number then pre '09.
    I took the caliper apart and tried matching with Honda seals, which are Nissin parts.
    The following fit perfectly and are exactly the same size:

    45109-MA7-006: dust seal ring
    45209-MA7-006: pressure seal ring

    These work out cheaper AND you can buy them per piece. About 48 euro for a full kit, compared to 128 euro at Triumph.
    Maybe there's a kit for the Honda, which can work out even cheaper...


    I've tried to confirm if these are correct but I'm not in a situation to measure my current ones as I'm not at home if and when I do I'll update this thread and in the meantime if anyone can help out it would be much appreciated.:D
     
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  2. StMarks

    StMarks PTG

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    Looking forward to finding out which bike mate. :))
     
  3. Tom.c

    Tom.c

    Thread Starter

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    :::: Update ::::


    so after another day of Internet scrolling I found the following information

    1. The size of the seal within the Nissin mono block caliper of the 09-12 daytona is 32mm

    2. The piston seals are solid pieces whilst the dust seals have an groove on the inside diameter assuming this is the case for most bikes though.

    3. I've found that the Honda seals are genuine parts and are also the correct size of 32mm there seems to be an abundance of bikes that the seals will fit to either the front or rear caliper. I'm pretty sure there will be other Jap bikes that utilise the same seals also but I'm yet to find/confirm these so far though the two parts from above are actually from a Goldwing, @StMarks there's also NSR125 and CBX 750.

    4. This opened up several new avenues to explore including other bikes with the same size seal and ebay searches

    5. The price for a full caliper build using these seals is considerable lower I cant understand why triumph would hold such a monopoly on this part unless Nissin have made a part that bespoke for a single set of calipers would they?

    6. Ended up buying the spares I needed from Davidsilver.co.uk with both piston and dust coming out at £80 including postage, was still sick in my mouth at the price of small rubber o rings but hey at least its a genuine part for a full rebuild at half the price of one from triumph directly

    7. now we play the waiting game and hope to fuck they work well and perform whilst on track
     
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  4. RL_675

    RL_675

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    Location: dartford, sidcup
    reading this is a little worrying for me as i have the powerhouse seals in my black nissin calipers. Does anyone else have experience with these?

    I am not particularly fast but i am getting quicker.

    i have one option of maybe going to the R6 calipers. this might be the best improvement or spend the dollar and get the hell calipers.

    you mention above that the company have pulled them however i have found them on ebay!!!

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triumph-...324060?hash=item236c26985c:g:kNAAAOSwvg9XVUjJ
     
  5. Tom.c

    Tom.c

    Thread Starter

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    Location: Wiltshire
    :::: UPDATE 2 ::::

    The Honda Seals arrived today and have now been fitted. after careful inspection of the old compared to the new something caught my eye and I cant tell if the heat has warped them or they are indeed an inferior seal quality but..

    the honda seals measured nearly bang on 32 mm and sat snug on the piston with no gap down the sides

    the powerhouse seals measured almost a mm over and easily fell down the piston leaving a considerable gap down the sides, could this be the issue?

    either way the seals went in easily and using compressed air all pistons 'popped' with as little as 30-40 psi, so I'm pretty happy so far i wont get a chance to field test these until I get a new MC and some decent weather on track!


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  6. CamPhair

    CamPhair

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    I've just bought these too.
    Hopefully they're the right thing.
    Think I'll be back on track by the end of next month. I'll post up if they work ok.
     
  7. CamPhair

    CamPhair

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    Update.
    Was out on track a couple of weeks ago. Just an evening session and due to weather only made it out for a couple of wet 20 minute sessions. By the end of the night was definitely suffering "break fade" ie I could pull the lever almost right up to the bar.
    Just put it down to air still being in the system and as this was the first time I had used them since replacing the seals didn't give it too much thought, just bled them again when home but no noticeable amounts of air coming out.
    Was back on track on Monday and unfortunately they were terrible. Same issues as before, after a couple of sessions could pull lever right into the bar and had to use a zip tie on them over lunch time and bleed them again to get them functional. Again no sign of any air in the system when bled. Same story after lunch.
    Last year I used these over 10 separate days and had absolutely no issues whatever.
    Using Motul 660 RBF. This fluid was bought last year and the bottle was opened last year. Stored in the original container indoors (not in the garage). Is it possible the fluid could be the issue? I doubt it but would be willing to hear others opinions.
    The reason I upgraded to the black callipers was due to the fact that I was having the same issue with the original gold ones.
    Now thinking should've bought the Triumph oem parts.
     
  8. StMarks

    StMarks PTG

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    Worrying.
    Fwiw I have the gold calipers, and they remained rock solid even going through almost a complete set of pads on one OPL day sharing the bike between a buddy & myself ( & he's a much faster rider than I ).
    Do you think that the issue could lay elsewhere.? -Perhaps the Master cylinder.??
     
  9. CamPhair

    CamPhair

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    From memory I think the feedback I had on the original gold callipers was that some seemed to be ok and others were a bit dodgy. Just your luck I guess. Hence the reason for the updating to the black ones.
    It's a brembo MC. RC19 I think. Fitted at the same time as the callipers so only a year old.
    The only thing different is the seals.
    Definitely don't want to be going on track with the current setup.
     
  10. Tom.c

    Tom.c

    Thread Starter

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    Location: Wiltshire
    I did Bedford autodrome last month and didn’t have any issues with my setup that’s fresh built using the Honda seals

    new HEL 19 MC
    Hel brake lines
    Rbf 660 fluid
    Monoblocks with the Honda seals
    Brembo discs
    GpFax pads

    bike stopped hard and I didn’t have any issues. I have been told that the MC can take some time to bleed in properly as I also found the ‘back to bar effect’ after the day was done

    when she goes racing in June I’ll let you guys know how she did
     
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  11. CamPhair

    CamPhair

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    Don't remember having any issues bleeding the mc last year.

    May have a rake through the bin and see if I can find the original seals and re fit them.
    Sent from my VOG-L29 using 675.cc mobile app
     
  12. CamPhair

    CamPhair

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    Just to be clear.
    The performance is fine ie stopping power etc.
    It's the gain in travel, or back to the bar, that the lever develops over a session.
    Attached pics shows the lever fully out, the amount of travel before they start to bite, and how much you can squeeze the lever.
    As shown in the last pic, it's possible to squeeze the lever right back to the bar.

    Normally the brakes bite with only a very small amount of pull on the lever. Now the lever travels about half way until they bite.

    I've dug the old ones out the bin and will replace them shortly.
    I'm wondering if the Honda seals were never designed to take the kind of temperatures that would be generated on a track bike given the bikes they were originally for.
    IMG_20210504_130809.jpeg IMG_20210504_130821.jpeg IMG_20210504_130837.jpeg

    Sent from my VOG-L29 using 675.cc mobile app
     
  13. StMarks

    StMarks PTG

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    Very troubling. :-??
    Fwiw I personally do not see how the seals themselves would effect lever travel.? -As I see it, the pressure is transferred to the pistons themselves and the seals only serve to ensure that fluid pressure is unable to bypass the pistons. So unless there is evidence of fluid weeping at the calipers then presumably they're working correctly.
    The only things that I can see that would cause that (terrifying imho) amount of lever travel are the fluid being adulterated (air being the usual suspect) or the delivery system expanding.
    Circa 20 years ago I had a CBRrr that suddenly started to develop excess travel when the brakes got hot. Frustratingly they would seem alright by the time I got it in the workshops, and took a lot of time to identify the culprit. In the end it was the OEM rubber hoses that were failing, and when the fluid got hot they expanded. New braided hoses sorted that instantly.
    Of course I'm not saying it's your hoses, but trying to point out that these problems can be elusive until you solve them -Only then does it become obvious.! LOL
    If the system goes soft after getting hot, then returns to firm if left alone, would that not imply that the system is distorting somewhere when exposed to heat.?
     
  14. cpatel89

    cpatel89

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    I’ve noticed that you said you opened the bottle off brake fluid last year, as far as am concerned that’s a big no no as the brake fluid is hydroscopic which may be the reason for the brake fade

    I’d be looking at flushing the system and using fluid from a freshly opened bottle

    You might be having vapour lock

    View attachment 53906


    Sent from my iPhone using 675.cc
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 5:32 PM
  15. StMarks

    StMarks PTG

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    Just spotted the " I think " mate ???

    I really don't want to be a killjoy, because the RC19's are a lovely bit of kit by all accounts.
    But,,:duck!:
    I do remember a couple of years ago there were threads about fake Brembo RC19 cylinders. I seem to recall also, that gradually increasing lever travel was one of their tells.?

    :-?? Hope you're going to tell me I'm definitely wrong to consider that..
     
  16. CamPhair

    CamPhair

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    When I said "I think" I just wasn't sure about the correct model number.
    I bought the lever off of https://www.bikehps.com/ and it came with the authentication code etc.

    As air is much more "seaking" than fluid it is possible that air could be getting drawn into the system without fluid coming out but I'm no expert and could just be conjecture.

    I've raked through the bin and found the original seals and also ordered new fluid.
    I'll replace the fluid first and see how that goes.
    It's interesting that the only thing different is the seals and Tom.c appears to be having the same issue with "back to the bar" issue.

    Thanks again for all the comments.

    Sent from my VOG-L29 using 675.cc mobile app
     
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  17. CamPhair

    CamPhair

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    Also should've said that it's Hel braded lines which again were newly fitted last year.
    And once the lever gains travel it stays that way.
    Only way to get rid of the travel is to compress the lever, fix it in position with a zip tie and leave it for some time(normally over night) then bleed both the MC and calipers.

    Sent from my VOG-L29 using 675.cc mobile app
     
  18. StMarks

    StMarks PTG

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    So it's not heat distortion and air is present after use, so either the air is entering the system or already present in a hidden form ( eg as cpatel89 suggested, the hygroscopic fluid having been adulterated).

    A puzzler, for sure.. Fwiw, although unconvinced, in your position I would also be deeply suspicious of those seals.
     
  19. While its probably a good idea to flush it through with fresh brake fluid just to eliminate it as a possible cause, I personally can't see a problem with opening a new bottle for 30sec while you pour some out and then re-sealing it and using it a year later, i've done it many times, i'm not throwing away a full bottle each time i use a tiny amount to bleed the brakes.
    How much moisture is it actually going to absorb in the time you have the bottle open, and how is that any different to having the brake fluid reservoir open while you bled the brakes or change the fluid, is that contaminated?
     
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  20. 6sense

    6sense

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    FWIW, I have exactly the same set up on my D675, RC19, Nissin black monos and braided hoses. Which I’ve always found easy enough to bleed and are a good upgrade from the original set up. The problem you describe was exactly the same as an issue I had with the brakes on my ZX6R 6 pot Tockio calipers. Played around with it for ages, replaced the seals, internal MC piston upgraded to braided lines, polished the pots etc..... Every time I thought I’d fixed the issues the lever would be back to the bar after several sessions. Even took it to the bike shop who thought they’d bleed it and it was only air. Nope same problem. In the end it transpired it was one or more pistons sticking in the calliper. Not too noticeable but enough so it wasn’t fully engaged against the back of the pad, until (I believe) it fully heated up after a session or two. These callipers are notoriously bad once they get to a certain age and many owners of this bike with the same set up complained of the same issue. May be worth trying another set of callipers before investing too much time in the seals and pots.
     
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